「別格すぎる」大谷翔平とPCAのナ・リーグMVP争い！二刀流の価値とWARを巡り大論争【海外の反応】

ゲームで自分が作って毎年無双させて飽きて放置した架空の選手そのまんまだわ。大谷はまさにその『飽きるフェーズ』に入ってるんだよなw

He’s literally as good as the imaginary players I used to make in video games that dominated year in and year out until it got boring and I moved on. He’s in the boring phase where I would normally be moving on lol

まあピート・クロウを除けばな。

Well except for Pete Crow

過去5シーズン怪我続きじゃん。あいつに恨みはないが、常に怪我してる選手にMVPを与え続けるのは無理がある。今回は登板できないことだしな。ほぼ全試合グラウンドに出てなきゃ意味ないんだよ。過去2年半強力な打線に守られてるし、PCAはそうじゃない。

& has been injured for the last 5 seasons. Nothing against him, but you can't keep giving the MVP award to a player who is constantly injured. In this case, him not pitching. At some point, you have to recognize that his stats are great, but it is pointless if he is not on the field almost every game, even though we know there are rest days during the season. I'm talking about mostly his pitching. Also, consider the fact that he's had a loaded lineup the past two n half years. PCA has not at all…

年間10試合以上も休んでる！「常に」怪我してるな！

That's over 10 games a year! CONSTANTLY injured!

全試合のたった6%だぞ。94%は出場してるんだから常に怪我してるとは言わないだろ。

That's 6% of games. So he plays 94%. Would hardly call that CONSTANTLY injured

うわ。お前、皮肉センサー壊れすぎじゃないか？マジで言ってんのか？

Wow. Is your obvious sarcasm detector that badly broken? I mean seriously, can you not tell?

このスレには本気でそういうこと言う奴が結構いるんだよ。

There are genuine comments like that on this thread quite frequently

2024年に何試合投げた？ゼロだ。昨年のレギュラーシーズンは何試合？14試合だ。今年は？14試合だろ。28試合先発したのは2022年だけ。ずっと怪我してるじゃねえか。2018年に肘やって2019年全休、2020年は2試合登板。😂またすぐ壊れるぜ。

How many games did he pitch in 2024? ZERO. How many games did he pitch last year regular season? 14. This year? At 14. Only one season did he start 28 games at pitching. 2022. ALWAYS INJURED. Blew his elbow in 2018. Missed all of 2019. Only pitched 2 games in 2020. 😂 Nice try bubba. He is about to break down again. Knee is about to explode.

うわぁ、お前妄想たくましすぎだろ。

Wow you're delusional

妄想してるのは肘の故障を認めないバカなファンだけだ。通算の登板成績見てこいよ。9年間でフルに投げたの1シーズンだけだぞw

The only delusional ones are idiot fans who have not recognized his busted elbow. Go look at his career pitching stats. 9 years in the league, only one full season of pitching. LoL Ya turd.....

いや、シーズンの1/3投げただけじゃ最高の守備を誇るセンター相手に勝ち目はないね。大谷がもう投げずに打撃成績が同じくらいなら受賞すべきじゃない。

Meh, 1/3 of a season pitching isn’t really a winning argument against one of the best defensive CF’s. I think if ohtani doesn’t pitch again and their hitting stays similar he shouldn’t win.

登板試合でドジャースは11勝3敗だぞ。完全に勝利へ直結してる。

Dodgers are 11-3 in his starts. Direct impact.

そうか？あいつが投げなくても普段の勝率なら8か9勝はするはずだ。実質プラス3勝分だろ。PCAが守備でそれだけ貢献してないと思うか？

Kinda? If he didn’t pitch those games their typically win percentage would give them 8/9 wins. So a net of 3 wins. Do you think PCA has contributed that with his defense?

PCAの守備WARは1.8、つまり1.8勝分だ。あとさっきの間違ってたわ。大谷先発試合は9勝5敗だな。その負けた5試合で大谷は31.2回を投げて自責点6、防御率は1.71。シーズン防御率は1.79だから、負け試合のほうが良いピッチングしてるんだよ。

※WAR：控え選手と比べた総合貢献度

PCA’s dWAR is 1.8. Or 1.8 wins. And I was incorrect. Dodgers are 9-5 in his starts. In those 5 losses Ohtani allowed 6 runs in 31.2 innings. For a 1.71 ERA. His season ERA is 1.79. So he’s pitched better in LOSSES than in wins.

大谷のせいでみんなの感覚が狂っちゃってるよな！想像してみてくれ、もし大谷が生まれてなくて他の選手が今年の成績を残してたら、間違いなく満票でMVP獲ってるぜ！

It's crazy how Ohtani has made us think differently! Just picture it: if Ohtani was never born and someone else had the season he's having this year, they'd totally be a unanimous MVP, no question about it!

評価基準を引き上げたのは同意するが、打撃が同等なら10回の素晴らしい先発登板のほうが重要ポジションのトップ選手より価値があるのか？史上最も驚異的な選手であることと、その年のMVPであることは必ずしも一致しない。

Not disagreeing with you that he has moved the goalposts, but, if the batting is the same, is 10 great starts more valuable than the best player at a premium position that year. Being amazing, probably more amazing than any player ever, does not necessarily make you the most valuable player in a given year within the sport.

PCAは素晴らしい中堅手だけど、リーグ最高の守備力って主張にはライバルもいるぞ。それに投手はセンターよりよっぽど重要なポジションだ。

PCA is a great CF, but he has competition on his claim to being the best defensive CF in the league. Also, pitching is a more premium position than CF

確かにパヘスも対抗馬だな。捕手・遊撃手・中堅手は別格の重要ポジションだ。もし自分が架空のGMなら、打撃を除けばシーズン序盤10試合の大谷の登板より、PCAのセンター守備からより多くの価値を得られると考えるね。

※GM：ゼネラルマネージャー（編成責任者）

True, Pages gives him competition (not counting Rafaela being league specific, so don’t think anyone else is at their level). Yes pitching is its own category, but just didn’t want to lump all the other positions at the same level with catcher, shortstop and center field being the premium spots for position players. But removing batting from both, my team as a make-believe GM gets more value from PCA in center field than Ohtani for 10 games to start the season (plenty of assumptions with PCA pla…

完全に直近の印象に引っ張られてるな。あいつにしかできない芸当だし、途方もない契約に見合う唯一の選手だろ。規格外のバケモノなのに、みんな大谷に見慣れて麻痺してるだけだ。

It’s recency bias at work here. Nobody else can do what he does, or give what he’s giving to his team, he’s quite possibly the only guy worth his egregious contract. But everyone one is very been there, done that with Ohtani now despite him being an absolute freak of nature.

投票者の飽きは確実にあるよな。毎年同じ男だし、ユニコーンには逆風だ。ただ、この打撃成績に加えて復帰後の後半戦で前半戦並みの投球を見せたら、ぶっちぎりで受賞するだろうさ。

Voter fatigue is a thing for sure - same guy year after year- and will hurt the unicorn a bit. However, if he had these hitting numbers and put up his first half pitching numbers in the second half after a comeback, he’d win going away.

こんなシーズンに「いや〜」とか言っちゃうの正気じゃないわ。期待値が高すぎるんだよ。ファンは毎年自己ベスト更新を求めてて、他選手じゃなく過去の自分と比較されてる。投票者は偉大さを認めて今年もMVPを獲るはずだが、満票にはならないかもな。

To say "meh" to a season like this is just insane. Like the other guy said, recency bias and sky-high expectations. Now fans want him to out-do himself every year, he's not measured against other players as much as he is evaluiated against his past self. I think the MVP voters acknowlege his greatness and he gets the MVP again this year but it may not be unanimous, though it should.

圧倒的な投球じゃなきゃ同意するけどさ。85イニングで防御率1.79、95奪三振は狂ってるって。クローザーがこの数字でシーズン終えたらサイ・ヤング賞の候補に入るレベルだぞ。

I’d agree if it wasn’t dominant pitching. A 1.79 era and 95Ks over 85 innings is crazy though. If a closer ended up with his numbers at the end of the season he’d be in the cy young conversation.

投票者がセーブ数ばかり崇拝してるからだろ。エリック・ガニエは凄かったが先発が200回投げる中で80回なら防御率0.5くらい出さなきゃな。あの年のガニエはシュミットやプライアー以上の価値はなかった。PCAの守備価値は大谷の投球価値と同じくらい高いから、あとは打撃の勝負になる。

Because voters still jerk off to saves. Eric Gagne was amazing but if you're pitching 80 innings in a season where starters are pitching 200+, then you better have like a 0.5 ERA. Gagne just wasn't more valuable than Jason Schmidt or Mark Prior that year. PCA isn't just great at CF, Statcast grades him at/near the top for all defenders. I'd say PCA's defensive value this year is as high as Ohtani's pitching value this year, so for me it will come down to offensive value, which I think is very cl…

先発での防御率1点台に守備の価値なんて到底及ばないわ。

Defensive value isn’t anywhere near comparable to a sub 2 ERA as a starter

100%同意。大谷が相応しくなくて獲れないなら納得だけど、センターの守備が決めてなんて言ってるのは単に大谷に勝たせたくないだけだろ。大谷が投げなくなってからドジャースが以前の58勝31敗から16勝18敗に落ちてるのも見逃せない事実だ。

I agree 100%. I’d be fine if Ohtani doesn’t win it of he’s not deserving in the end but acting like a center fielder’s defense is the deciding factor is basically like admitting that you just don’t want Ohtani to win again. It also seems relevant that since Ohtani stopped pitching, the Dodgers are 16-18 compared to 58-31 before

180回投げての1点台ならそうだな。でも85回しか投げてないから投球価値は優秀なリリーフ止まりだ。全ポジションでOAAと守備価値1位の選手の守備力に匹敵する程度だよ。

※OAA：平均的な野手より多く奪ったアウト数

A sub 2 ERA for 180 innings, correct. But he's only pitched 85 innings and his pitching value amounts to a very good reliever, which is comparable to the defensive value of someone who's number 1 in OAA and fielding value amongst ALL positions.

今のMLBじゃ85イニングって普通の先発の半分くらいだぞ。十分すぎる価値がある。

Ya and in today's MLB 85 innings is basically half the innings of a normal starter. So still a lot of value.

お前のハンドルネーム、ぴったりだな。

Your name suits you.

今まで見た中で最悪の意見だわ。

Worst take ive seen thusfar.

ピートがここからの2ヶ月間、中4日でマウンドに上がって無双するならMVP獲るべきだな。

Ya if Pete takes the bump on very five days for the next two months as well and mostly dominates he should win.

シーズンの1/3をエース級で投げたなら文句なしの論拠になるだろ。あんなレベルで投げられる投手が何人いると思ってんだ？それにPCAの数字は大谷を圧倒してない。せめて大谷の50-50シーズン並みのインパクトを出さなきゃな。

1/3 of a season of elite pitching is definitely winning an argument. How many pitchers are there, and how many can pitching at his level? Also, PCA'S numbers dont look head and shoulders above ohtanis. He should at least match ohtanis 50/50 season

2008年にCCサバシアが17先発で11勝2敗してサイ・ヤング賞トップ5に入ったの覚えてるか？大谷は今年14先発で8勝2敗、同じくらい圧倒的だった。それに打席での活躍が加わるんだからヤバすぎるだろ。これがシーズン最後の1/3だったらみんな発狂して絶賛してるはずだ！

Remember when CC Sabathia finished in the Top 5 for the 2008 NL Cy Young after going 11-2 over 17 starts? Ohtani went 8-2 over 14 starts this year and was re wually dominant. That, along with what he's done at the plate, is pretty damn impressive. If he saved those starts for the last 1/3 of the season, people would lose their minds!

だな。だからこそこの議論自体がまだ早いんだよ。MVPレースを決めるのはいつだってシーズンの最後の1ヶ月だ。

Yeah, and that’s likely why this conversation is moot. It’s always the last month of the season that really decides the MVP race

大谷についての文を「いや〜」で始めるあたり、理解できないほど若いかアホかのどっちかだな。たぶん両方だろ…。

To start a sentence about Ohtani as “meh” just shows you’re either too young to understand or too dumb. Maybe both….

いや、あのコメント主はちゃんと理解してると思うぞ。理由も説明してるし。それに比べてあんたは…うーん…。

Nah, the comment made me feel like they definitely understood. They even explained their thinking. You, however....hmm...

あぁ、お前も理解できてない口か。まあ気にするな。

Ah so you don’t understand either, no biggie

中4日の特別ローテなしで投げまくって支配的な投球をした唯一の投手なのに、それが些細なことだと？現代野球で守備の良さなんて勝敗への影響力は過去最低レベルだぞ。フライ革命とスリー・トゥルー・アウトカムのせいで外野の守備はおまけみたいなもんだ。「守備はいいけど打てるの？」って話だよ。

You think being the only pitcher to not have their special 1 on 4 off schedule, and dominating while doing it, is a trivial detail? Being good at defense in this era of baseball is as irrelevant as it's ever been to winning. Launch angles and the prevalence of the 3 true outcomes has made great defense a perk of an outfielder. "That's good, but can you hit." If you're not in the infield in 2026, your defense kinda doesn't matter bc you're not getting enough action to be super impactful either wa…

ヤンキースのセンター見てみろよ、守備がどれだけ大事かよく分かるからさw

Yea, just watch the dude playing CF for the Yankees how much defense matters. Lol

昨年のハムストリングの怪我で完全に終わっちゃったよな。守備技術というより守備範囲の問題だ。足がク○みたいに遅くなって昔みたいにミスをカバーできない。それ以前はゴールドグラブ級だったのに。スピードと範囲こそが守備の最重要要素だな。

That hamstring injury from last year has pretty much ruined him. It's not his overall defensive ability so much as it is his range. He's just really fucking slow now and can't outrun his mistakes like he used to. He was GG level before then. Almost is if speed/range is the most important factor to being an effective defender.

マイク・トラウトを何年も見てきたけど、外野守備で足と守備範囲だけが重要じゃないって断言できるぞ。打球への初動が絶望的に下手だったのを足と追球力で補ってた。今じゃその両方を失って、どれだけ守備が下手かモロバレになってる。

I promise that after watching Mike Trout for years I can unequivocally say that speed/range is not the only important part about defense for an outfielder. He has always gotten absolutely horrendous jumps on balls but made up for it with speed and ability to track. Now he has none of those things and it’s very obvious how bad of a defender he is

「唯一」とは言ってない、「最も」重要だと言ったんだ。他は練習で上手くなるが足の速さは教えられない。スピードが落ちればあらゆる欠点が露呈して取り戻せないんだよ。トレント・グリシャムのこと言ってるんだろ。遊撃手が三塁に回されるのも一歩目の速さと範囲を失うからだ。

I didn't say it's only important part, I said it's most important. You can get better at everything else if you practice, you can't teach speed. Once it's gone, it exposes every other flaw in your game, and you can't get it back. You're literally describing Trent Grisham. That's why SS gets shuffled over to 3B, it's bc they lost a step and their range. Unrelated to any other skillset.

最重要ですらないね。一番大事なのは飛んできた球を捕ること。2番目は打球への良いスタートを切ること。スピードと範囲なんてせいぜい3番目だし、捕った後に狙った場所へ投げる送球力より下だと思うわ。

It’s not even the most important. The most important is being able to catch the ball when it comes to you. 2nd is getting a good jump on the ball off the bat. Speed and range are at best 3rd on the list, and even then I’d say that they’re behind being able to actually throw the ball where it needs to go once you get it

ヤンキースは守備のせいでマジでワールドシリーズ負けたんだから、関係ないとか言うのバカすぎる。大谷は凄いけどシーズンの1/3しか投げずにあとはDH専念じゃ足りない。登板間隔に余分な休養日をもらってるんだから、普通の先発と同じ扱いにするのは不誠実だ。

Yankees literally lost a World Series cause of their defense, so dumb to say it’s irrelevant. Ohtani’s is amazing but 1/3rd of a season pitching and the rest dhing isn’t doing it. If he comes back and pitches this season that’s another story. He also gets an extra day of rest between starts so it’s disingenuous to say he’s a totally normal sp when the team has to use a 6 man rotation.

ドジャースは大谷が投げてた時期58勝31敗で、やめてから16勝18敗だぞ。めちゃくちゃ価値あるじゃん。エースの価値って6連敗みたいな泥沼を防いで長いスランプに陥らせないことにあるのをみんな忘れてる。

The dodgers were 58-31 while he pitched and add 16-18 since he stopped. That sounds pretty valuable. People forget that part of the value of a #1 starter is it limits the occurrence of things like 6 game losing streaks and keeps the team from falling into prolonged slumps when they can’t win

ほぼ全チームが何らかの6人ローテを導入してるのにそれを持ち出すのもずるいな。守備が無意味とは言ってない。MVP争いにおいて最も些細な要素だってことだ。壊滅的じゃなければ誰も気にしないし、合格点以上なら評価に大差ないんだよ。

It's also disingenuous to act like virtually every other team isn't using some version of a 6 man rotation, and has been for almost a decade. I didn't say defense was irrelevant. I'm saying it's the shortest feather in your cap to have and least important part of the MVP argument, for any player. As in, if TCA was anything but terrible on defense, no one would care and it wouldn't have any effect on his MVP campaign. Being terrible can hurt your chances, but anything above passable doesn't reall…

みんな大谷に飽きてるだけだよな…打撃で同じような成績残して大谷が獲れなかったらアホらしすぎる。シーズンの1/3でサイ・ヤング賞の2番手だった男だぞ。

Yeah dude people just have Ohtani fatigue at this point…if they put up the same stats while batting and Ohtani doesn’t win then it’s just stupid. Dude was 2nd favorite for Cy Young for 1/3 of the year.

唯一無二の存在になると、見飽きちゃうんだよな。

When your 1 of 1, it gets boring.

は？14先発で8勝2敗、防御率1.79、WHIP0.95だぞw シーズンの1/3以上だし、先発陣に苦しんでるドジャースの勝敗に絶大な影響を与えてるわ。

What? lol he’s 8-2 with a 1.79 era and 0.95 whip in 14 starts. That’s more than 1/3 of a season and it has massively impacted the dodgers record, especially with how much they’ve struggled for starting pitching

大谷専用の賞じゃないって認めてるだけだろw PCAがWARで勝つならMVPに値するよ。

Nah I just recognize it’s not just the ohtani award lol. If PCA beats him in war he deserves mvp

WARがすべての絶対的な指標ってわけじゃない。

War isn’t the isn’t the end all stat

PCAの防御率はいくつなんだよ？勝負にすらなってないわ。

What is PCA's ERA? Not even close.

実際0.00だからPCAの勝ちだな。

It’s 0.00 actually so PCA is winning

PCAはスタットキャスト導入以来最高の守備シーズンを送ってる。今の大谷はただのDHだしな。

PCA is also having the best defensive season in the stat cast era. Ohtani is just a DH now.

いや、PCAが圧倒的に優位だね。

Nope, it’s PCA’s to lose.

信者に低評価食らうだろうけど100%正しいよ。走塁とゴールドグラブ級のセンター守備で大谷以上の攻撃・守備インパクトがある。主要なWAR計算で大差をつけてリードしてるのにはちゃんと理由があるんだ。

You'll probably get downvoted by the fanboys, but youre 100% right. Better offensive impact than Ohtani due to speed and GG level defense at a premium position. He has a significant lead by every major WAR calculation for a reason.

巻き返す？PCAのほうがfWARもbWARも上だぞ。

※fWAR・bWAR：米データサイトのFangraphsとBaseball-Referenceがそれぞれ算出するWAR

Makes up ground? PCA has more fwar and bwar